[Mailman-Users] genaliases not updating aliases file

[Maria McKinley]

Hi there,

I am having difficulty getting genaliases to work. When I run it, it
outputs a list of my mailing lists, but it does not change the file
/var/lib/mailman/data/aliases or aliases.db

I am using postfix, and have the following in my main.cf file

alias_maps = hash:/etc/aliases, ldap:ldapdata,
hash:/var/lib/mailman/data/aliases
alias_database = hash:/etc/aliases, hash:/var/lib/mailman/data/aliases

virtual_alias_maps = hash:/etc/postfix/virtual,
hash:/var/lib/mailman/data/virtual-mailman
virtual_alias_domains = $virtual_alias_maps

I believe when I set this up I was not using virtual aliases, but can't
find documentation on this anymore, and not sure how to tell for sure. I
think it does not matter if I do or not, since I only have one domain
that I am using for mailman. I am using postfix-to-mailman.py, since I
have this line in /etc/postfix/master.cf

mailman unix - n n - - pipe
flags=FR user=list argv=/usr/lib/mailman/bin/postfix-to-mailman.py
${nexthop} ${user}

In postfix-to-mailman.py it gives instructions for virtual aliases, but
not for non-virtual aliases, so maybe now I have to use virtual aliases
if I am using postfix-to-mailman.py?

I am confused by somewhat conflicting documentation. In mm_cfg.py, it says:

# Uncomment if you use Postfix virtual domains (but not
# postfix-to-mailman.py), but be sure to see
# /usr/share/doc/mailman/README.Debian first.
#MTA='Postfix'

But then in postfix-to-mailman.py, it says
# /etc/mailman/mm_cfg.py
# MTA = Postfix # So that mailman generates the recipients table

The README was not particularly helpful in this case.

The stuff for mailman in main.cf (in addition to the alias stuff above) is

# stuff for mailman
relay_domains = lists.shadlen.org
transport_maps = hash:/etc/postfix/transport
mailman_destination_recipient_limit = 1

I have this in /etc/postfix/transport:
lists.example.com mailman:

Can anyone help make sense of this?

thanks,
maria

[Mark Sapiro]

Post by Maria McKinley
I am having difficulty getting genaliases to work. When I run it, it
outputs a list of my mailing lists, but it does not change the file
/var/lib/mailman/data/aliases or aliases.db

If you want to use aliases and have genaliases update files, you must have

MTA = 'Postfix'

(uncommented) in mm_cfg.py.

Post by Maria McKinley
I am using postfix, and have the following in my main.cf file
alias_maps = hash:/etc/aliases, ldap:ldapdata,
hash:/var/lib/mailman/data/aliases
alias_database = hash:/etc/aliases, hash:/var/lib/mailman/data/aliases
virtual_alias_maps = hash:/etc/postfix/virtual,
hash:/var/lib/mailman/data/virtual-mailman
virtual_alias_domains = $virtual_alias_maps

What do you have in Postfix's transport maps?

Post by Maria McKinley
I believe when I set this up I was not using virtual aliases, but can't
find documentation on this anymore, and not sure how to tell for sure. I
think it does not matter if I do or not, since I only have one domain
that I am using for mailman. I am using postfix-to-mailman.py, since I
have this line in /etc/postfix/master.cf
mailman unix - n n - - pipe
flags=FR user=list argv=/usr/lib/mailman/bin/postfix-to-mailman.py
${nexthop} ${user}

Defining the transport doesn't mean it's used. Do you have an entry like

lists.shadlen.org mailman:

in /etc/postfix/transport?

(sigh...) second time this week ...

Please read the posts at
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2012-August/073993.html>, <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2012-August/073994.html>
and
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2012-August/073997.html>.

Post by Maria McKinley
In postfix-to-mailman.py it gives instructions for virtual aliases, but
not for non-virtual aliases, so maybe now I have to use virtual aliases
if I am using postfix-to-mailman.py?

The "officially unsupported by the GNU Mailman project", 3rd party
postfix_to_mailman.py delivery method is an alternative to and
incompatible with aliases.
Talk to Debian/Ubuntu about this.

Post by Maria McKinley
# Uncomment if you use Postfix virtual domains (but not
# postfix-to-mailman.py), but be sure to see
# /usr/share/doc/mailman/README.Debian first.
#MTA='Postfix'
But then in postfix-to-mailman.py, it says
# /etc/mailman/mm_cfg.py
# MTA = Postfix # So that mailman generates the recipients table

I *think* that the Debian/Ubuntu package with postfix_to_mailman.py uses
the Mailman generated virtual-mailman file (created with

MTA = 'Postfix'
POSTFIX_STYLE_VIRTUAL_DOMAINS = ['lists.shadlen.org']

in mm_cfg.py) as a recipient_maps table, not as virtual_alias_maps. My
mind boggles at the nonsensical nature of all this. The only point (and
it's a weak one) of using postfix_to_mailman.py in the first place is so
you don't have to rely on Mailman's generation of aliases and
virtual_alias_maps, but then they (Debian) turn around and rely on
Mailman to generate a virtual alias map which they use as a relay
recipient map to stop non-list mail from getting to the 'mailman' transport.

Post by Maria McKinley
The README was not particularly helpful in this case.
The stuff for mailman in main.cf (in addition to the alias stuff above) is
# stuff for mailman
relay_domains = lists.shadlen.org
transport_maps = hash:/etc/postfix/transport
mailman_destination_recipient_limit = 1
Can anyone help make sense of this?

Unfortunately, Yes.

The basic thing you have to decide is whether to use
postfix_to_mailman.py or Mailman's Postfix integration.

postfix_to_mailman.py:
advantages:
- doesn't require aliases
- at least as originally intended without relay_recipient_maps,
once it's working it continues to work as lists are created
and deleted
disadvantages:
- no support from the people who distribute it in their package
(why else are you here?)
- required a dedicated domain for mailing lists
- does not support non-list addresses in the dedicated domain
- triggers grumpy rants when you ask for help on this list.
Mailman - Postfix integration:
advantages:
- documented and supported by the GNU Mailman project.
- works well in hundreds if not thousands of Mailman
installations
- allows multiple list domains, both local and virtual.
- allows non-list addresses in list domains
disadvantages:
- you tell me. Maybe it doesn't work or is hard to
configure in some arcane Postfix configurations.

[Maria McKinley]

Post by Mark Sapiro

Post by Maria McKinley
I am having difficulty getting genaliases to work. When I run it, it
outputs a list of my mailing lists, but it does not change the file
/var/lib/mailman/data/aliases or aliases.db

If you want to use aliases and have genaliases update files, you must have
MTA = 'Postfix'
(uncommented) in mm_cfg.py.

Great, I'll do this.

Post by Mark Sapiro

Post by Maria McKinley
I am using postfix, and have the following in my main.cf file
alias_maps = hash:/etc/aliases, ldap:ldapdata,
hash:/var/lib/mailman/data/aliases
alias_database = hash:/etc/aliases, hash:/var/lib/mailman/data/aliases
virtual_alias_maps = hash:/etc/postfix/virtual,
hash:/var/lib/mailman/data/virtual-mailman
virtual_alias_domains = $virtual_alias_maps

What do you have in Postfix's transport maps?

I actually had that included in my original email, but here you go:
I have this in /etc/postfix/transport:
lists.example.com mailman:

Or is this not what you mean by transport maps?

Post by Mark Sapiro

Post by Maria McKinley
I believe when I set this up I was not using virtual aliases, but can't
find documentation on this anymore, and not sure how to tell for sure. I
think it does not matter if I do or not, since I only have one domain
that I am using for mailman. I am using postfix-to-mailman.py, since I
have this line in /etc/postfix/master.cf
mailman unix - n n - - pipe
flags=FR user=list argv=/usr/lib/mailman/bin/postfix-to-mailman.py
${nexthop} ${user}

Defining the transport doesn't mean it's used. Do you have an entry like
in /etc/postfix/transport?
(sigh...) second time this week ...
Please read the posts at
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2012-August/073993.html>, <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2012-August/073994.html>
and
<http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2012-August/073997.html>.

...

Thanks so much, no idea why these don't show up when googling. My one
annoyance with Mailman is it has no good search feature. Sorry for
asking a question that had so recently been brought up.

Post by Mark Sapiro

Post by Maria McKinley
In postfix-to-mailman.py it gives instructions for virtual aliases, but
not for non-virtual aliases, so maybe now I have to use virtual aliases
if I am using postfix-to-mailman.py?

The "officially unsupported by the GNU Mailman project", 3rd party
postfix_to_mailman.py delivery method is an alternative to and
incompatible with aliases.
Talk to Debian/Ubuntu about this.

Post by Maria McKinley
# Uncomment if you use Postfix virtual domains (but not
# postfix-to-mailman.py), but be sure to see
# /usr/share/doc/mailman/README.Debian first.
#MTA='Postfix'
But then in postfix-to-mailman.py, it says
# /etc/mailman/mm_cfg.py
# MTA = Postfix # So that mailman generates the recipients table

I *think* that the Debian/Ubuntu package with postfix_to_mailman.py uses
the Mailman generated virtual-mailman file (created with
MTA = 'Postfix'
POSTFIX_STYLE_VIRTUAL_DOMAINS = ['lists.shadlen.org']
in mm_cfg.py) as a recipient_maps table, not as virtual_alias_maps. My
mind boggles at the nonsensical nature of all this. The only point (and
it's a weak one) of using postfix_to_mailman.py in the first place is so
you don't have to rely on Mailman's generation of aliases and
virtual_alias_maps, but then they (Debian) turn around and rely on
Mailman to generate a virtual alias map which they use as a relay
recipient map to stop non-list mail from getting to the 'mailman' transport.

Post by Maria McKinley
The README was not particularly helpful in this case.
The stuff for mailman in main.cf (in addition to the alias stuff above) is
# stuff for mailman
relay_domains = lists.shadlen.org
transport_maps = hash:/etc/postfix/transport
mailman_destination_recipient_limit = 1
Can anyone help make sense of this?

Unfortunately, Yes.
The basic thing you have to decide is whether to use
postfix_to_mailman.py or Mailman's Postfix integration.
- doesn't require aliases
- at least as originally intended without relay_recipient_maps,
once it's working it continues to work as lists are created
and deleted
- no support from the people who distribute it in their package
(why else are you here?)
- required a dedicated domain for mailing lists
- does not support non-list addresses in the dedicated domain
- triggers grumpy rants when you ask for help on this list.
- documented and supported by the GNU Mailman project.
- works well in hundreds if not thousands of Mailman
installations
- allows multiple list domains, both local and virtual.
- allows non-list addresses in list domains
- you tell me. Maybe it doesn't work or is hard to
configure in some arcane Postfix configurations.

...

Perfectly happy to switch. Just took the Debian default years ago, and
have no idea why it only became a problem now. Well, I have some idea;
many upgrades and moving servers later, and haven't tried to make, move
or remove any lists for many years.

In addition to the instructions you pointed me to for using postfix with
mailman, I am assuming I also do the following (stuff that I did
following instructions in postfix_to_mailman.py, some of which has been
confirmed that I need to get rid of in links you gave me, but including
all for completeness):

#get rid of the virtual-mailman entry in virtual_alias_maps from
postfix/main.cf:

virtual_alias_maps = hash:/etc/postfix/virtual,
hash:/var/lib/mailman/data/virtual-mailman

# and this other stuff in main.cf:
relay_domains = lists.shadlen.org
transport_maps = hash:/etc/postfix/transport
mailman_destination_recipient_limit = 1

# Get rid of these lines from master.cf:
mailman unix - n n - - pipe
flags=FR user=list argv=/usr/lib/mailman/bin/postfix-to-mailman.py
${nexthop} ${user}

# remove this line from /etc/postfix/transport:
lists.example.com mailman:

# and finally from /etc/mailman/mm_cfg.py
POSTFIX_STYLE_VIRTUAL_DOMAINS = ['lists.example.com']
# alias for postmaster, abuse and mailer-daemon
DEB_LISTMASTER = '***@example.com'

Thanks so much for your help.

[Mark Sapiro]

Post by Mark Sapiro
The basic thing you have to decide is whether to use
postfix_to_mailman.py or Mailman's Postfix integration.

In case it wasn't clear, by Mailman's Postfix integration, I meant
Mailman's automatic maintenance of the aliases and virtual-mailman
files to be used as alias_maps and virtual_alias_maps in Postfix.

[Mark Sapiro]

Post by Maria McKinley

Post by Mark Sapiro
What do you have in Postfix's transport maps?

Or is this not what you mean by transport maps?

Sorry, I missed that in the OP. Yes, That's what I meant.


[...]

Post by Maria McKinley
Thanks so much for your help.

You're welcome, even if it didn't seem so from my original reply. If
you have any further problems, please let us know.